It seems Linus’s position is very clear now
Lemmy is gonna lose its mind. Lmao!
I actually do think that someone who already has multiple decades of experience in programming without using AI is probably not producing shoddier code after incorporating it into their workflow. Important modern software projects, whose backbones are programmers fitting that description, aren’t going to be worse in the present because of Claude usage. I remain strongly against it though, because normalizing its usage guarantees the future won’t have programmers that fit that description running the shows.
I think this can be framed as a statement about generative AI in general: If you think AI has been making everything shittier today, just wait until you see what it’s been doing to everything tomorrow.
… then you win
I can’t wait for a base linux install to be 60 GB of slop, like windows.
Nobody freaks out when skilled programmers/professionals use AI, it’s actually a tool for them and not full-on skill substitution.
Yeah, of all the people out there using Claude, he’s the absolute least worrisome. He’ll read the whole thing, and if he doesn’t like anything at all that it does, he won’t let it do it.
What you’re saying is that if you aren’t a famous programmer you deserve to be ridiculed for using the same tool?
And how do you square this with all the crying about water?!
Not if you’re famous, if you’re bad at coding on your own
Where did I say famous? Read harder. Water concerns are separate from wreckless vibe-coding concerns.
lots of people freak out actually (not me)
If I’m at the wheel or some other newbie vibe coder, FTFO. Senior devs that use it as a time-saving tool? I’m happy to trust their judgement.
Linus has said that he reads compiler output. I have no doubt that he reads the code, I’m not particularly worried about bad code.
I just hope he doesn’t get lazy and brainrotted like I’ve seen happen with coworkers. People who used to call themselves “software craftsmen” now shipping 1k+ line changesets with fully generated documentation.
… obviously he can read it but you people insist it takes so much more time to do it this way. Linus is proving that is a lie. Why would he do that if writing code was so much easier?
Also you people cry about the water usage etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. the water is being used here. Why is it okay for him to do it?
You also don’t know him. Maybe he’s not reading every piece of code.
Yall are hypocrites. Fucking hypocrites. And yall gatekeep from people “you don’t know”(aka if you aren’t already fucking famous you’ve got the mark of the beast Abe deserve ridicule). Yall can’t see how you’re fighting the fight for the oligarchs. You can’t see how you pick and choose who is allowed to use new tech. Fuck all of yall hypocrites. You’re wrong.
Also you people cry about the water usage etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. the water is being used here. Why is it okay for him to do it?
It’s not.
Any chance Claude code could come up with a solution that would fall under the copyright of a third party?
Any chance? Yes.
I can’t edit to see Linus fucking loose it with Claude.
Linux Foundation has financial backers. He’s gotta give them lip service to keep them excited and happy. Anthropic is now a Gold Member. Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Meta, Amazon are all Platinum Members.
FOSS has always been subject to corporate meddling in their governance. There’s a reason we call it Linux and not GNU-Linux. GNU gets no money so GNU goes nowhere.
Linus gives a headline using agents, Linux gets millions to continue doing real work. That’s the game they are playing, for better or worse.
Linus regularly posted on Google+, it’s more like he himself isn’t that into foss and sees everything as a utility to use
Nobody can prove this is the case. Linus sees coding LLMs as an inevitable evolution and compares them to what compilers were for Assembly.
I don’t personally think this particular use of LLMs is unethical, but using open models would definitely improve the look.
My issue isn’t with using AI to work on the Linux Kernel. My issue is working on the kernel with proprietary AI which enables Sam Altman to claim Millennium Prizes.
I completely agree, using an open model would be far more inline with the spirit of open source.
It’s a good thing Sam Altman isn’t Anthropic !
nitpicking doesnt change the point being made. A corpo getting more control over FOSS is a huge loss for everyone
The reactions to this have been pretty hysterical considering this is an experimental branch on his own repository. I’m not surprised he might experiment with using AI agents to solve a particular pain point to see how it does. This is using agents to experiment with things that you might not have time to address normally.
Another recent example is the build system where the author said:
An LLM was used to first determine where the bottlenecks were then to figure out how to improve them. It generated a lot of code, much of it hideous.
I extensively audited and rewrote a lot of it, and heavily edited commit messages, the cover letter and comments.
off-loading the boring grunt work of identifying bottle necks and trying new approaches seems like an ideal task for a junior agent to deal with as long is you don’t YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
as long is you don’t YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
(Or not de-slopify at all.)
There’s literally no one I trust more to handle llm code more than Linus.
He’s not going to pass off shit in his name. He’ll use it in the best possible way.
Lots of reasons to be anti-AI, but it’s not all black and white. It’s here to stay and it’s useful. (But we ain’t gonna spend 400 billion a year on it.)
I have never met an engineer i trust with an llm. I doubt i’d trust linus
People cannot seem to grasp that there is a difference in using LLMs to experiment and just blindly using code written by an LLM. You’d think they would realize Linus is never going to do the latter. Binary thinking leads to this…
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way? no? these things have so many negative effects on the world in so many areas that making life more convenient for coddled computer touches doesn’t excuse literally any of it
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way?
Yes. There is no doubt that if you use an LLM for everything that will use several fold more times electricity than someone who uses it a few times a year.
Like I said, binary thinking. You’re literally saying there is no difference in 1 and 1000000 because both are more than zero.
so the less you use it, the better? glad we can agree
Right, so we know Linus has used Claude for one project. You are saying there is no excuse for that and I don’t agree. I don’t think it makes sense to take absolute stances against things that will undoubtedly be used by most everyone eventually. Just like I think cars are generally bad, I’m not about to get pissed off at everyone who drives them.
the earth doesn’t care if you think this is a good use or linus is somehow worthy when the regular plums aren’t.
dario and his epstein wife sure do though. so keep going to bat for them
Your absolutism will take you nowhere. No one will bother to even listen you because you aren’t able to communicate about this topic.
For me, there’s more to it than just the output. But I’m sure Linus won’t let his mind rot in LLM. Yet. Still… Lots of reasons to object to using AI at all. Use a computer responsibly, folks.
I can absolutely understand some of the objections and I understand why writers and artists are pissed. My code has always been free software so I don’t object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
The power usage is definitely a concern but that holds up for all computing. I don’t see people up in arms about inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
My code has always been free software so I don’t object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
But what about the output of an LLM that was trained on free software, then being used in closed source, commercial software? 🙁
inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
Oh yeah, I’m definitely with you there. Oh gosh.
They probably should be up in arms! Both are bad things, simultaneously, as two things can be!
The reactions to this have been pretty hysterical
i FULLY expected more hate. lol
He used ai from evil american capitalist corporations, instead of one from good chinese communist corporations though.
he’s a us empire aligned capitalist – of course he would
Absolutely. When communist AGI takes over the world, people like him would get what they deserve.
It seems like the tide is finally starting to turn here in terms of LLM usage. Even 4 months ago this thread would be a nightmare lol
It’s a slippery slope. So far Linus has gone from using it to find bugs, to using it as a programming assistant, and now ostensibly to vibecode entire features.
Where will it end? Will Linus shut off external contributions and let the agents loose like Bun did? That would be a tragedy in my book.
The phrase vibecode has become totally meaningless. The original use was too “give in too the vibes” and let the agent go wild. There is no indication that is what Linus is doing.
The fact is LLM’s have proven to be good at finding bugs. Suitably constrained they can be diligent and helpful assistants.
The Bun experience is instructive and if that was Linus’ end goal it would be concerning but I don’t see any evidence that any of the Linux maintainers are interested in that sort of wholesale conversion. The good projects with taste will adjust to the new tools and the slop projects will eventually collapse under their own contradictory architectures.
We can just fork the latest kernel version we feel comfortable with.
for people wondering what “folios” in Linux memory management are: https://lwn.net/Articles/937239/
How much has he dumbed down his capabilities already? When will he replace himself by an LLM?
He was already pretty dumbed down back when he used to shit on C++. From there to the neutering he went on (we don’t get middle fingers for Nvidia anymore) and now this… it’s sad to watch.
Die a hero or else, as the saying goes.
the decay of humanity
Of this I agree. It may very well be the end of us.
Having said that, LLMs produce far better code and architecture than most developers.
Flame on!
Is this the beginning of the end for Linux?
Might be.
It was already clear. Anybody speaking otherwise has already been tagged and flagged as such.
